how hard is a phd in psychology reddit

7 Tips for Applying to a Psychology PhD Program

The unwritten rules that i wish i knew.

Posted January 7, 2015

I just sifted through this year's batch of graduate student applications to the clinical psychology PhD program at George Mason University . Here are the emotions that I experienced:

Awe - reminded that if I was applying to graduate school with my 1998 packet, I would never get in. There are some psychology obsessed youngbloods out there.

Elevation - ignore the pessimism in the news, a vast number of hungry characters are coming through the pipelines to improve society. They are already making inroads and want a PhD to give them extra leverage.

Anxiety - the pressure to get near perfect grades, near perfect standardized test scores, and intensive research and clinical experience is palpable. I often wonder how many of these characters pause to enjoy their once-in-a-lifetime college years. I remember reading The Fountainhead on a bench in the middle of campus at 2am on a random Tuesday while the Ithaca snow rained down in slow-motion. Sitting across the quad from me was a muscular guy reading The Celestine Prophecy. The two of us talked about books, women, society's expectations, and the hero's journey for hours. This is the kind of intimacy that creates life long bonds, raising the bar for how strangers should communicate. Then there was the time [insert dangerous, naked, and/or drunken story #4-103]. I never thought about graduate school while attending Cornell University. I lived day-to-day, semester by semester. Not today's graduate school applicants....

Dismay - as someone who takes mentoring seriously, I am disappointed to read poorly constructed applications. Everybody should have a high quality mentor who points out problems before that submission button is pressed.

Inspired - I wish somebody offered me inside information on what professors really care about when they read an application. Because I have a natural distaste for authority, I feel compelled to provide this information to every student aspiring to be a psychologist.

With these emotions in tow, here are my seven concrete suggestions for those masochistic enough to apply to a PhD program in clinical psychology (this will also be relevant for other graduate programs that emphasize science). A strong clinical psychology program will reject more than 90% of applicants. The odds are against you. This post has been designed to improve your odds.

whatever manner works best for you.

Wisdom #1. You will not get an interview without direct research experience. This was not the case 10 years ago. We know that undergraduate courses are required and many universities allow you to retake courses until you get the desired grade. For this reason, grades matter little (get over a 3.2 GPA and I am ready to treat you no differently than someone with a 4.0). Now an honor thesis is optional. Completing one shows dedication, discipline, and devotion to science. Gaining research experience in a professor's laboratory is behavioral evidence that you know about sweat equity and the delay of gratification. My advice is that it is better to aim for an A- in your courses if it means that you can dedicate more time to assist in research with a scientist and eventually conduct studies under their guidance. Nothing in the classroom approximates the skills, knowledge, and psychological strengths that you develop with hands-on research. Nothing.

Corollary - Don't waste your time accruing a wide breadth of experiences unless you are doing it as an end it itself. I don't care if you are vice-president of Psi Chi, a volunteer fire fighter for 6 hours per year, and created the first cultural neuroscience book club at your local library. I am more impressed with hardcore dedication and deep penetration in one activity (where somebody can speak to your invaluable contributions) than a lengthy curriculum vitae (CV). In a similar vein, I don't care if you obtained authorship on multiple journal articles. To me, this says that you work with generous people. One first author poster presentation where you did the bulk of the writing, analyzing, and conceptualizing is all I need. Aim for quality and depth.

Wisdom #2 . It does not matter where you go to college. Ignore guidance counselors and well-meaning parents that argue for the edge afforded by those with an Ivy League education (and those schools that make the capricious top 25 in the latest US News and World Report rankings). I only care about what you did and whether you can hit the ground running in my research laboratory. This year alone, I sifted through applications from Armstrong Atlantic State University, Samford University, Wofford College, and Help University. I never heard of any of them. What I care about is that you can write, possess superior critical thinking skills, and know the agony and ecstasy of following through from a fetal research idea to the initial analytical tests to the interpretation of these results and finally, the dissemination of this work to the world. Don't spend extra money for badges and stars. Spend your time in a research laboratory to understand psychological science.

Wisdom #3 . If you suck at taking standardized tests, take them as many times as you can. This shows me that you are determined. This shows me you care about verbal, quantitative, and analytical intelligence and you are pissed off that the GRE fails to capture yours ( which is often the case ). Take it once, fail, quit and what I infer is that you are unequipped to handle setbacks. The life of a psychological scientist is littered with setbacks and failures. I want somebody who can be counted on when the stakes are high and the probability of success is unknown. Show me you are that person. Don't tell me, show me.

Wisdom #4 . Be interesting. When you sound like a walking, talking scientific article, you are uninteresting. Be a human first. The best way to be interesting is to live an interesting life. Exotic people. Exotic places. Cultural Immersion. A willingness to be vulnerable. Strange experiences. Anxiety provoking experiences. To be psychologically minded and ask great questions, you must truly live. I remember an applicant several years back who at the end of her CV listed the 18 countries she visited. That one bit of information gave the extra edge that landed her an interview. After all, that much travel should give you an interesting lens to view the complexity of human behavior.

Wisdom #5 . You don't need three amazing letters of recommendation, you need one. You must cultivate a relationship with one person who understands what you have done in psychology and more importantly, what you strive to become. Find a great mentor and work hard at forming a strong relationship. Show them what you can do. Ask for experiences and tasks that are beyond your skill level and then deliver - over and over again. You want one person to be able to say that you are one of the top 3 people they have ever mentored in an important skill set - writing ability, critical thinking, work ethic, creativity , teamwork , etc. Show somebody what you are capable of doing and make sure that it is visible to them. When I talk to my colleagues at conferences, I ask them about students who might be applying to work with me. Conversations with trusted colleagues are persuasive. I want you to know that these conversations happen. So be a good colleague. Be trustworthy. Be autonomous. Ask questions when you don't know something. Seize opportunities. Ask for opportunities. Repair relationships when needed. Be the type of person that somebody can speak highly of at all times. You never know when these backchannel conversations are going to happen.

Wisdom #6 . Showcase your uniqueness. Avoid clichés of how psychology is your life's passion (you are just getting started and don't know yet). If this is true, tell a story (show me, don't tell me). When asked what separates you from applicants with perfect GRE scores, a 4.0 GPA, and two years of research experience, do not state that you work harder (72 applicants will make the same claim). Do not mention that the origin of your interest in psychology was the psychological problems of relatives or the social difficulties faced during teenage years (we all need to be loved just like everybody else does so move on). You possess a configuration of strengths and weaknesses that inform a life history and perspective unlike any other human being. Learn how to tell a compelling, emotionally engaging story about how this informs your potential. I am more interested in your potential than your past. Do not be afraid of marketing yourself. Sell me on your potential.

Wisdom #7 . Do not lie. Almost every applicant says they want to be a scientist because they think this is what PhD programs want to hear. Pretend that you are uninterested in clinical practice and you will despise graduate school with me. Lying about your interests will hurt your experience in graduate school and the mentor that selected you from an impressive pool of applicants. Be honest and find the best mentor match. You only get trained once. Make it count. Show integrity. The field of psychology is small and relationships matter.

The goal of the admissions process is to find the best people for the exact mentors available at a specific program. The hope is that the relationships that develop will last far beyond the five years of graduate school. How you get trained and by who matters. I hope the information in this blog post will help your journey. Keep me posted on your accomplishments.

Dr. Todd B. Kashdan is a public speaker, psychologist, and professor of psychology and senior scientist at the Center for the Advancement of Well-Being at George Mason University. His new book, The upside of your dark side: Why being your whole self - not just your “good” self - drives success and fulfillment is available from Amazon , Barnes & Noble , Booksamillion , Powell's or Indie Bound . If you're interested in speaking engagements or workshops, go to: toddkashdan.com

Todd B. Kashdan, Ph.D. , is a professor of psychology at George Mason University and the author of The Art of Insubordination: How to Dissent and Defy Effectively .

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Can I keep my full-time job while I pursue a PhD in Psychology, and if so, for how long?

I have read this question posed a lot for math and science doctoral degree , but my question pertains to pursuing a social sciences doctoral degree . I'm currently working as a Management Analyst in local government. I've decided to pursue a PhD in Psychology at a nearby university. Being accepted is a big "if", but if I were accepted, my goal would be to retain my position in government as long as possible and find ways to connect my research to social behaviors pertaining to civic engagement and public health. I'm also in my early 30s, which means I'll be doing this during the decade when most people are settling into their careers. The eventual goal is to pivot to academia and pursue a career in lecturing and research.

My hope is that the overlap would ease the tension between holding down a relatively demanding, full-time job and would benefit my research. With that said, I'm wondering if I need a reality check here. Has anyone else endeavored anything like this? How difficult is it to balance both?

• research-process
• work-life-balance

• 15 A PhD is (usually) the equivalent of a full time job (the majority of PhD students I know work at least 40 hours a week). Most PhDs are relatively demanding. Only you can decide if you have the time and energy to keep two relatively demanding full time jobs on the go. –  astronat supports the strike Commented May 19, 2020 at 17:00
• 2 Is your employer willing to somehow support your education and research goals? –  Anyon Commented May 19, 2020 at 17:23
• 4 I have heard of those who go to work (full time) when all that remains for their Ph.D. is the writing of the thesis. They may take many years to finish the writing, or even never finish. –  GEdgar Commented May 19, 2020 at 17:29
• 2 A better use of your time is to use your paying job to save up a nest egg to supplement a PhD stipend. Maybe knock out some classes if you can (state and local employees often get tuition benefits at state universities) –  Azor Ahai -him- Commented May 19, 2020 at 17:35
• 2 @PhilipSchiff " The eventual goal is to pivot to academia, and pursue a career in lecturing and research " OP is considering this with a goal in mind of an academic career for which a PhD is required. –  Bryan Krause ♦ Commented May 20, 2020 at 23:33

5 Answers 5

I don't want to repeat the points made in other good answers.

If you want some work-life-balance , keeping the full-time job and doing a PhD at the same time is impossible. In most cases, having a consistent work-life-balance while doing a PhD alone is very hard.

• 4 Nice. But even with no overlap it ain't always easy. –  Buffy Commented May 19, 2020 at 22:21
• 4 @Buffy totally agree. I am trying to do it now with only a full-time job and fail spectacularly. –  Anton Menshov Commented May 19, 2020 at 22:49
• 2 If OP wants to defend a thesis that is good enough to support a career in academia, the center becomes "five-legged unicorn-rare". –  henning no longer feeds AI Commented May 23, 2020 at 8:51

You can consider doing a part-time PhD that can be completed any time between 4 and 7 years (actual times may vary). This is an option provided for people with external responsibilities, such as having a full-time job. It is certainly feasible, but it includes the supervisor and the department agreeing. Also, the situation around fees and funding needs to be clarified, as the department may hesitate to provide funding to a part-time student with a full-time job and allocate it instead to a full-time PhD student with no other means. You might still be able to secure paid work (teaching or marking), a stipend/ bursary or for fees to be waived or covered by something else. This, of course is country and department specific. Technically, combining a full-time job and a part-time PhD is doable.

That said, even a part-time PhD requires a significant time commitment provided continuously, or at least in specific productive periods doing the PhD. In brief, research is a strange beast that cares little for your personal circumstances and cannot be put easily in boxes or timetables. It requires clarity of thought, calmness, time (often time to waste!) and personal commitment, which the conditions might not provide despite your best efforts. Even if the goal is not an academic career but simply completing a PhD, the demands are still high and you need to consider how to balance work, further responsibilities (social life, family, caring etc) and possible changes in the future (e.g. moving away, starting a family). I dare compare it to someone like a fencing or chess champion: a high level athlete, with all the dedication that demands, who cannot support oneself from that activity and needs to put as much time and effort in a full-time job. It is not a leisure hobby or a past-time activity. I do not know how you imagine research to be, and everyone has a different story according to their field, personality and circumstances. The more stories you hear, the better.

The advice I give to anyone is to think very carefully about the reasons for starting a PhD. Such a commitment is not undertaken because "there is nothing else to do", "I want to be a student again/more", "all my friends have one" or "I want to be a Doctor". It is a very demanding, long endeavour, unlike most experiences and requires a clear, persistent and strong personal desire and motive. I am not trying to dissuade or indirectly criticise you, and have no reason to doubt your composure, personality or abilities. I am only emphasising the need for careful thought, because quite early on, and after the first experience, you will need to decide what level of quality you will be able/ willing to reach in your work. The level of quality greatly depends on what I discussed earlier, so it becomes a virtuous or vicious cycle. At the end of the day, nobody knows your conditions better than yourself and you are the ultimate judge on how to combine the two.

• 2 4-7 years part-time would make sense in a system where a PhD is usually completed in 2-3 years. In the US, a full-time PhD in psychology would be expected to take 5 years. (not sure where OP is) –  Bryan Krause ♦ Commented May 20, 2020 at 23:10
• I am not familiar with a country where the expected time for PhD completion is 2 years. Most commonly it is 3 (also the time of a full-time studentship), with writing up granting an extra year. A good approximation for a part-time PhD is double the time of a full-time PhD, and in that context 4 means a brief extension over the standard full-time period. –  user117109 Commented May 20, 2020 at 23:16
• 1 Ok; in the US it would definitely not be 3 years, though, so if OP is in the US they would need to substantially adjust their expectations. –  Bryan Krause ♦ Commented May 20, 2020 at 23:32

As you have already learned, it is very difficult. Normally a doctoral program (in the US, where I assume you are) is a full time "job", but for most of the students that includes a fair amount of work as a TA to avoid tuition charges and provide a meager living. If you already have an established lifestyle and a family to support then giving up your job for this probably isn't feasible.

I'm assuming the US, here. Normally you start a doctoral program with coursework leading to comprehensive qualifying exams, followed by research leading to a dissertation. Normally universities impose a time limit on your studies, perhaps seven or so years. But things vary. If you already have a psychology masters it could be a bit different. Possibly some other masters would make a difference. Most students will have an undergraduate degree in psychology or a closely related field so the coursework is somewhat advanced. If you don't have that, it might be harder, both to get into a program and to fill in any gaps in your background.

But supposing that tuition is not a problem for you and your current job pays you well, then it might be possible under, perhaps, a modified study plan provided that you don't need to work as a TA (caveat below). Since you say it is a nearby university, you should find a way to communicate with them. In person is best, but hard now with the pandemic. Ask whether it is possible to start out with a lighter than normal course load so as to see how you can manage it. You have to get prepared for comps and you have to take care about any time constraints.

Thus, it might be possible to manage it up to the point where you start serious dissertation research. After that it may be less feasible to do both, but you will also have a better sends then of the tradeoffs and sacrifices you need to make.

But the best advice would come from the psychology faculty of the institution you would like to study at. They will point out any constraints and possible pitfalls.

Note, however, that for some programs, serving as a TA is a requirement for the degree, it being considered an important aspect of the education. In such a program you would almost certainly have something like two full time jobs.

As other commentators have stated, a full-time PhD candidate is usually expected to study full-time hours, which is nominally 36-40 hours a week, but it often turns out to be longer. Most universities impose rules on their PhD candidates that require approval from the Department for the candidate to take an outside job for more than some minimum number of hours per week. For example, when I did my PhD candidature, the rules said that I needed Department approval if I wanted to work more than 10 hours per week in an outside job. If I had asked to work a full-time job during my candidature, I am quite certain they would not have approved it.

As with all university administration matters, you will need to look up the rules at your particular institution. Your university will have a set of written rules for the PhD candidature, and that will tell you if there is any formal restriction on outside work during the candidature. Ordinarily, if a candidate is working a full-time job, they will be expected to drop their candidature back to a part-time load. This is desirable both for the university and for the sanity of the candidate.

I was in a somewhat similar situation, getting accepted to a U.S. PhD-program in the social sciences while being a senior analyst at a local government. I arranged for a reduced schedule for the first few years while doing coursework, taking exams, and ultimately the orals. It worked reasonably well, but it came with a cost both in terms of my "old" job where I was less available, and also as far as being less focused on my new program, forming networks, being part of group research projects, etc.

After my orals, I quickly moved back to full time, which made it at least a challenge to hit a good and persistent research stride. It took longer to finish, I was more scattered in most endeavors--including my young and growing family, and certainly, while my professional and academic interests overlapped substantially, I didn't have the same research output as some of my more academically focused peers had.

Which brings me to my final point about your motivation. I kept my leg in the professional world and didn't jump fully into the academic one, and am now back in a regional agency, which suits me quite well, but I often wonder how different my academic experience would have been if I had jumped in 100 percent and had gone the more traditional route. You say you want to pivot to academia--that seems to me to be an indication that you may start out by keeping your job, but be prepared to choose if things get tricky, and get a more focused academic experience.

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How Long Does It Take to Get a PhD in Psychology?

Ariel Skelley/Getty Images 

• How Long Will It Take?

Before You Earn PhD in Psychology

Which type of degree should you get, can you finish your degree early.

Just how long does it take to get a PhD in psychology? The answer can vary depending on your program, educational background, and academic schedule. In general, most PhD psychology programs take anywhere from five to seven years to complete.

Learning more about what it takes to get a doctorate in psychology can help you better plan your educational and career journey.

At a Glance

Getting a PhD in psychology can take several years of graduate study. If you are thinking about becoming a psychologist, research your degree options to figure out what type of degree you need and how long it will take to enter your chosen profession. No matter what you decide, plan to spend anywhere from three to seven years in graduate school to earn a doctorate.

How Long Will It Take to Get a Doctorate Degree?

How long it takes to get a doctorate in psychology depends on various factors, including the type of degree you have selected, your educational background, and the individual doctorate program in which you have enrolled.

Most doctorate programs in psychology take between four to seven years to complete.

PhD in Psychology

Most PhD programs require at least five to seven years to complete. These programs often follow a scientist-practitioner model that trains professionals both in research and clinical practice.

In addition to regular coursework, you may also be expected to complete an internship or supervised residency. The program usually culminates in completing an original research project or dissertation.

PsyD Degree

Most PsyD programs require between four to six years to complete. A PsyD is a degree designed to train professionals to apply psychological knowledge to treating and helping people in real-world settings.

According to the American Psychological Association, PsyD programs focus more on applying psychological science, usually in the form of service.  

Most EdD programs require between three to five years to complete. EdD programs are often focused on psychology, counseling, or counselor education. They explore topics that involve both education and psychology.

It is important to note that many applicants to EdD programs already hold a master's degree in a related field. This differs from applicants to PhD and PsyD programs, who often begin their program of study with a bachelor's degree.

Before you begin your academic journey, it is a good idea to look at just how long it will take you to complete your degree. The amount of time it will take can depend upon various factors, including:

• Your chosen specialty area
• The program you select
• The course load you can take each semester

A doctorate-level degree in psychology is required to work in many job areas, including as a licensed clinical psychologist or counseling psychologist. According to the American Psychological Association, a doctorate degree is also often required in fields such as school psychology or health psychology .

So how long does it take to get a PhD in Psychology ? First, it is essential to realize that the degree requirements can vary depending on the field that you decide to pursue. A PhD, or Doctor of Philosophy degree is not necessarily your only option. In some cases, you might want also to consider the PsyD (Doctor of Psychology) or the EdD (Doctor of Education) degree options.

The PhD, PsyD, and EdD are all great options, but don't let how long it takes to complete be the primary deciding factor. Before you decide to get a doctorate degree, start by deciding which type of degree is most suited to your professional goals.

If you want to conduct research:

A PhD in Psychology tends to focus on a research-based model of education. People with a PhD in Psychology are qualified for a wide range of teaching, research, and clinical positions in colleges, universities, hospitals, government offices, and private mental health practices.

If you want to treat mental health issues:

The PsyD degree option generally focuses on a practitioner-based model of education. Individuals with a PsyD degree can also teach or conduct psychology research, but they frequently work in applied settings to provide direct mental health services.

If you want to apply psychology to help students:

Finally, there is also a third doctorate option that you might also want to consider depending on your career goals. If you are interested in working as a school psychologist or in a related educational field, the EdD, or Doctor of Education, is a possible option.

Despite the years of work, earning your PhD, PsyD, or EdD can be well worth the effort. The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics suggests that workers with a doctoral or education specialist degree in clinical, counseling, and school psychology will find the strongest job opportunities.

Generally, if you have a strong background in psychology and have completed all of the necessary prerequisites, you can finish your doctorate sooner than students who have not taken the prerequisite courses.

Carefully planning your degree can also help ensure you complete the program requirements quickly.

Be sure you have a clear idea of what you want to do with your psychology degree once you've completed it. Do you want to teach, or is research more appealing to you? Are you interested in seeing clients, or are you planning to combine your training in psychology with another field, such as law or medicine?

If you need help deciding, make an important with an academic advisor at your school. They can help you explore your options and answer any questions you may have.

What This Means For You

No matter the degree you decide to pursue, earning a doctorate in psychology requires a significant investment of time, money, and effort. Because of this, it is essential to carefully consider your goals before deciding on a graduate program. You should also think about whether you need a doctorate or if a master's might be more appropriate.

Gee DG, DeYoung KA, McLaughlin KA, et al. Training the next generation of clinical psychological scientists: A data-driven call to action .  Annu Rev Clin Psychol . 2022;18:43-70. doi:10.1146/annurev-clinpsy-081219-092500

Loyola University. Can I get my Psy.D. without a Master's in Psychology?

American Psychological Association. Doctoral degrees in psychology: How are they different, or not so different ?

Franklin University. Is getting a Doctorate in Education worth it?

American Psychological Association. Frequently asked questions about graduate school .

Bureau of Labor Statistics. Psychologists . Occupational Outlook Handbook .

Carr, A. Clinical Psychology: An Introduction . London: Routledge; 2012.

Kuther, TL. The Psychology Major's Handbook . Boston, MA: Cengage Learning; 2016.

By Kendra Cherry, MSEd Kendra Cherry, MS, is a psychosocial rehabilitation specialist, psychology educator, and author of the "Everything Psychology Book."

Psy.D. Vs. Ph.D.: Which Is The Right Fit For You?

Updated: Jan 2, 2024, 3:22pm

Committing to a Ph.D. or a Psy.D. program can have a significant impact on your career path. Both will prepare you for a career in psychology , but there are significant differences between the two programs you should know about. In general, a Ph.D. in psychology focuses more on research and a Psy.D. focuses on practical application.

While both programs can lead to becoming a licensed psychologist , taking a closer look at what each degree track will provide will help you determine whether a Ph.D. or Psy.D. is best for you.

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What Is a Ph.D. in Psychology?

A Ph.D. in psychology, or a Doctor of Philosophy in psychology, is a doctoral degree that primarily focuses on training students in scientific research. Compared to a Psy.D, the Ph.D. is more common and can be found at many public and private universities.

Students in a Ph.D. in psychology program can expect to obtain and build on the knowledge and skills within general psychology or in a concentration. The American Psychological Association (APA) has an extensive list of subfields that range from clinical psychology to climate and environmental psychology.

Benefits of a Ph.D. in Psychology

A significant benefit of a Ph.D. in psychology is that it offers more financial aid options. Many programs offer scholarships, teaching assistantships or even full or partial tuition remission to cover expenses. Some programs also have research grants and fellowships that are sponsored by government agencies and private companies that you can apply for and become part of a research team.

Another benefit is that some programs offer training in both applied practice and in research, rather than focusing heavily on application as a Psy.D. program would. Having dual training may provide you more opportunities on the job market.

What Is a Psy.D.?

A Psy.D., or a Doctor of Psychology, is also a doctoral degree that focuses on application. A Psy.D. program prepares students to provide services for patients and clients, rather than a focus on research.

Unlike a Ph.D., Psy.D. programs are often found in professional schools of psychology that may be university-based, free-standing or in medical or health and science institutions.

Benefits of a Psy.D.

While a Psy.D. may not have the same financial benefits of a Ph.D. program, a Psy.D. will give you more experience with patients earlier in your program. Candidates will often begin coursework and clinical training in the first year of their program.

A Psy.D. program, such as one for aspiring clinical psychologists , features an intensive focus on client-focused skills. Courses can include supervision and consultation, treatment and assessment and other classes that will cover disorders.

In some Psy.D. programs, you may be expected to complete a doctoral-level research project instead of a dissertation.

What to Consider When Choosing a Program

The first consideration you should make when choosing a program is the kind of work you want to pursue post-graduation. Do you want to do research or teach? Do you want to provide services to clients and patients?

Here are some considerations you should make when making the big decision.

Look at Time Spent in School

Both Ph.D. and Psy.D. programs require a heavy investment of your time in school. Programs often require applicants to have an undergraduate and master’s degree. However, some programs have combined master’s and doctorate degrees, reducing years of education and allowing students to enter the workforce sooner.

Students can expect to spend five years in school before obtaining a degree, with four years of coursework and one year of internship. Many candidates, however, take between five to seven years to graduate.

Find Your Focus

Your academic focus and concentration choice may sway your decision in applying for one doctoral degree over the other.

Concentrations in a Psy.D program are typically in clinical, counseling, school or industrial-organizational psychology . In contrast, the options of subfields within a Ph.D. program are more broad and focus heavily on research and experimentation to build knowledge within a discipline.

Consider Your Career Path

Considering your career path or interests will help you decide whether a Ph.D. or Psy.D. is right for you. While the most familiar psychology careers are commonly found in education and healthcare, psychologists are needed in other industries, such as business and technology. These in-demand specialties contribute to high psychologist salaries .

Accreditation

Accreditation of your Ph.D. or Psy.D. program ensures that your program is recognized by the governing bodies for licensure. While completing an accredited program will not guarantee you employment or licensure, it will equip you with necessary skills and knowledge.

The APA has a tool to help students find accredited doctoral programs, as well as internships and postdoctoral residencies across the country.

Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs)

What can you do with psy.d..

A Psy.D. focuses on working directly with patients to provide psychological services. For example, a clinical Psy.D. will prepare students to provide mental and behavioral healthcare to individuals and families across all demographics and over individuals’ lifespans.

Which psychology field is most in-demand?

The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics projects strong job growth for psychologists from 2022 to 2032, with a 6% increase overall. Clinical and counseling psychologists will see the highest demand, with an expected growth rate of 11%, followed by industrial-organizational psychologists at 6%.

How long does it take to earn a Ph.D. in psychology?

Many Ph.D. programs project a five year completion time. However, many students can take upwards of seven years.

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Brandon Galarita is a freelance writer and K-12 educator in Honolulu, Hawaii. He is passionate about technology in education, college and career readiness and school improvement through data-driven practices.

Amy Bucher, Ph.D.

Applied Behavioral Science for Health and Well-Being

Should I Get a PhD in Psychology?

Before I get started, keep in mind that PhD programs differ quite a bit between disciplines. If you’re thinking of getting a degree in engineering or English, your program might look a lot different from mine, so keep your grain of salt handy.

You might want to get a PhD in psychology if . . .

You want a job or career that requires a PhD. This one seems like a no-brainer, but not everyone thinks it through. In general, working as an academic in an R1 institution  (that is, a tenure-track professor role that includes both teaching and research) will require a PhD. It’s possible to get a college teaching job at a community college or liberal arts school with a master’s degree, although my guess is that this is getting increasingly competitive as PhD programs graduate new doctors faster than the academic job market can bear . Likewise, it’s possible to work in academic research (particularly in a lab manager or coordinator role) without a PhD, but these roles are not plentiful in the social sciences.

If you are interested in counseling psychology, it may not be necessary to get a PhD. PhDs in clinical psychology who receive their license (through additional training and internships) are qualified to counsel patients, but so are social workers (LMSWs), psychiatrists (MDs), and many other types of professionals. I’d recommend the PhD for someone who wants to counsel patients but is also interested in conducting and consuming research on mental health and treatment.

You can also use a PhD in psychology in a number of non-academic fields. I work in a blended role where I conduct and apply research on motivation and behavior change to health technology. Other psychologists I know work in market research and consumer insights, human resources data analytics, product development, and strategy consulting. A PhD in psychology typically comes with strong research design and analysis skills that can be creatively applied in a number of fields, although you may need to do some work to help others see that connection.

You are comfortable with intellectual uncertainty.  The more you know, the more you become aware of all you don’t know. A doctoral education is a fast way to figure out all of the many, many gaps in your knowledge. Being successful in graduate school requires getting comfortable with the idea that you will never know everything, that there is rarely an easy black-or-white answer to questions, and that your hardest work may not be in acquiring knowledge, but in sorting through it and organizing it. If you’re the type of person who loves puzzling through huge volumes of sometimes contradictory information, you will enjoy grad school more than someone who prefers just enough information to make a basically correct conclusion.

You love learning and sharing what you’ve learned.   This is a corollary to being comfortable with shades of gray. A colleague of mine once told me he can recognize people who have PhDs by their outlook when presented with a problem. He said, they’re the ones who will dive into researching and reading and figuring out the problem and want to discuss it and think about it.

You have a big but resilient ego.  On the one hand, it’s hard to make it through grad school if you don’t believe in your own intellectual abilities. It’s especially important to have a healthy ego because grad school also consists of being constantly beaten down. That sounds fun, doesn’t it? But in all seriousness, the volume of work required, the depth of feedback given, and the level of competition encountered in grad school all wear down on you over time. Add to that the many rejections and set-backs that everyone encounters during grad school, including paper and conference rejections, grades or exam scores below goal, and funding crises, and it takes a resilient soul to make it through. And it takes a big ego to keep submitting the next paper, exam, or grant application after the last rejection.

This is not to imply that grad school will not also make you more resilient. It will. You will learn a lot of strategies for coping with tough days and nights, and you’ll find enduring friendship in the trenches.

Some cautions . . .

If you want to be rich, a PhD is not a quick win.  You can definitely make a very nice living with a psychology PhD, in several different types of jobs. But grad school is expensive–even if you have a stipend to cover your costs, you will not be earning enough money to save, and you may additionally be acquiring loans. Because grad school living is so lean, I am glad I went right after my undergraduate, while I was still used to having no money (although I have friends who worked between undergrad and grad school and were glad to have some savings).

Many PhD programs include a master’s degree as part of their curriculum. I’ve met people who pursued a master’s degree as a way to test the waters for a PhD program. In general, I recommend against this. Many, if not all, PhD programs in psychology include a master’s degree as the conclusion of the first few years of coursework, and I’ve never heard of a program that lets someone skip those first few years based on a prior master’s. The people I know who tested the PhD waters by getting a master’s are now people with two master’s.

PhD programs take a while.  My grad school program, like many psychology PhD programs, was approximately five years long and included two years of coursework toward the master’s along with ongoing research requirements and at least four semesters of undergraduate teaching. Students pursuing a clinical license also have to do an internship on top of these other requirements.

People will be weird to you if you get a PhD in psychology.  First, if you get any PhD, some people will want to comment on your intelligence level (at least they assume it’s high!), which I find awkward. Second, if your PhD is in psychology, prepare for comments like:

• “Do you know what I’m thinking right now?” (Answer: No, that’s psychic, not psychologist.)
• “Are you psychoanalyzing me right now?” (Answer: No, I’m not that type of psychologist, but even if I were, I wouldn’t be doing my job for fun right now.)
• “So you must know everything that’s wrong with me.” (Response: Well, I know you don’t really know what a psychologist does.)

Joking aside, I think the PhD can intimidate people at times, so be prepared for those reactions and ready to either use them to your advantage or alleviate them with humor and humility.

It’s up to you.

Like I said, I can’t tell anyone whether a PhD in psychology is right for them. The decision has to be one you own. Grad school is hard and long, but also filled with many adventures and pockets of joy. I am so glad that I went and earned my PhD. I wouldn’t have my career and the opportunities it provides if I hadn’t, and I would never have met many of the people who are the most important in my life. If you want to take on this onerous journey, you have to really want it; but if you do, I promise you’ll have some good times on the way.

Related posts:

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• Walking Away from Academia with a PhD in Psychology

4 thoughts on “ Should I Get a PhD in Psychology? ”

I’m in my last year of my undergrad in psych. In 27 and have 2 kids. I want to pursue a degree where I can do what I enjoy, and make money. I’m worried about another 7 years in school for a PhD and was told there isn’t much for me with a masters in clinical psychology. I had looked into LCSW, but was not sure if I would be content selling short my dream/goal. Can I counsel, and still do research with a masters? Or am I better with an LCSW?

Admittedly, clinical practice is not my area of expertise. However, I do know people who have counseled with an MA and I also know several people with LCSWs. Both seem like good options if you’re interested in the clinical piece.

I’m not sure about the research part–I’d imagine that depends on where you end up working as a counselor. In a university or health system setting, it seems to me that should be possible. The PhD does make research more feasible as it sets you up to run a lab (assuming you go into academia or a research-focused company).

I was very influenced by the idea that even if something takes a long time, that time will still pass and at the end of it you could have done the thing or not. There have been a few times it’s helped me make choices that seem like they take a lot of time and commitment.

I’m interested in what you decide! I am sure you will find a way to do what makes you happy while making money.

Hi Amy! Thank you so much for your posts. I’ve been STRUGGLING with the decision of whether or not to apply to graduate school for a PhD in Social Psychology. To be frank, I don’t feel qualified to apply and I’m unsure if my reasons for wanting to go to graduate school are good ones. I’m no longer an undergrad student so opportunities to work in a lab has been impossible without at least a Master’s.

A little bit about me: I graduated from undergrad in 2015. I did work as a research assistant for a couple of months, but I mainly invested my time working full-time to pay for school. I liked working in a lab but it was in Human Development & Nutrition, so I often found myself watching the dynamics and social interactions between the family members rather than watching what I was tasked to focus on (whoops). I graduated with decent grades (3.75) with two majors (Communication & Psychology) and a minor (Latin – I love languages). I have a lot of supervising and training work experience from my job, and I would like to continue working in a training/educational capacity (so not really interested in being in academia).

The reason I want to study Social Psychology at the Doctoral level is because I have SO many questions on topics like resilience & life stories. As a trainer & supervisor, I would witness people crumble and thrive in the face of obstacles and (as a person who has the tendency to crumble) I would wonder: “What do resilient people do differently? How can the way we view our life stories change how resilient we are in the face of life challenges? What about in the context of training for a new position? How can programs be created to take into account differing personalities and stories?” Another reason is because I’ve read so many personal development books but I couldn’t help but think: “This is nice but show me the research behind it. I want to see it tested and understand why it works.” Not really sure if those are good enough reasons to apply.

Overall, I want to be able to take research on resilience and make it more applicable and accessible. I want to create workshops & train people on resilience & life stories (possibly do something similar to life coaching), but I’m not sure if that’s a good enough reason to apply or if I should probably go about it through another route.

I apologize for the long comment, but you’re website has been the only helpful website I have found on this topic!

Thank you for the kind comments!

As for applying–it can’t hurt to look at a few programs and see if you can’t find one that feels like a good fit. Having served on the admissions committee while in grad school (we were all required to give a year in service), I can tell you that your passion and curiosity will matter. Maybe you can find a few names of professors or grad students at schools that interest you working on resilience and grit and reach out to them for an informational interview (you may have better luck with grad students).

The other thing you could try to do is find a non-academic research job that lets you explore your questions. Agencies are a good place to look. Many big companies are also bringing behavior change teams in-house.

I’d love to know what you end up doing!

Comments are closed.

MS vs PhD: Which Psychology Degree Should You Get?

An  undergraduate degree  proves a great starting point for people interested in careers involving psychology. To advance into occupations involving greater responsibility and pay, however, generally requires a graduate degree.

For instance, a master’s degree in psychology is one of the necessities to become a licensed therapist, such as a marriage and family therapist – a career the  Bureau of Labor Statistics  (BLS) predicts to grow a whopping 16% between 2020-2030. And becoming a  psychologist  – a position with an average median annual salary of $82,180 – requires earning a doctorate in psychology.

What Are MS and PhD in Psychology Degrees For?

The  MS (Master of Science) in Psychology  and the  PhD (Doctor of Philosophy) in Psychology  are degrees for people interested in advanced study in the discipline. Students obtain a greater understanding of human behavior and how to help others. Degree earners are often interested in careers as therapists, licensed psychologists, researchers, or professors.

Choosing Between a Master’s Degree in Psychology vs. a Doctor of Philosophy in Psychology Program

The choice between pursuing a Master’s Degree in Psychology vs. a PhD in Psychology boils down to individual interests and career aspirations. Many students find a MS in Psychology sufficient for the types of jobs they want. Others discover a doctorate necessary for the occupations to which they aspire.

What Is a MS in Psychology?

An MS in Psychology is a graduate degree that prepares recipients for a variety of careers. It also can serve as a building block to entering doctoral studies, and an MS program typically takes about two years to complete. Online MS in Psychology programs sometimes offers accelerated options in which ambitious students can finish in around 18 months.

While coursework varies by institution and personal interests, students in psychology master’s programs often take these classes:

• Lifespan development
• Research methodology
• Cognitive psychology
• Social psychology
• Personality
• Foundations of therapy
• Family systems theory
• Abnormal psychology

Some students focus on general psychology. Others gear their master’s program to a specific area. Some niche choices include:

• Educational psychology
• Forensic psychology
• Clinical psychology
• Industrial-organizational psychology
• Sport psychology
• Health psychology
• Counseling psychology
• Child and adolescent development
• Applied behavior analysis

Who Should Get a MS in Psychology?

Students who want to expand their knowledge of psychology beyond the undergraduate level often seek a master’s degree. Some students pursue an MS to become more attractive candidates to schools when they apply to doctoral programs. 

Others enter the workforce after receiving their MS in psychology. They find careers in the following fields:

• Advertising
• Human resources
• Criminal justice
• Social services
• Mental health

What Can You Do with a MS in Psychology?

Individuals who have earned a Master’s in Psychology find their degree a gateway to various types of jobs dealing with people and what influences their behavior. A sample of possible occupations is listed below.

What Is a PhD In Psychology?

A PhD in psychology is the highest-level degree within the discipline. Earning it signifies academic excellence and dedication to the field. In addition to mastering psychological theories and concepts, PhD candidates learn how to advance scientific knowledge through their own original research.

Who Should Get a PhD In Psychology?

Obtaining a PhD in psychology is a rigorous process. It involves classwork, passing an oral exam demonstrating competency, and completing a dissertation. Practicums, internships, and teaching experiences may also be part of the program.

Students thinking about entering such a program should possess a  strong background in psychology , such as a bachelor’s and/or master’s degree. They also should look closely at their career goals and decide whether a PhD puts them on the right path.

What Can You Do with a PhD In Psychology?

The expertise obtained from earning a PhD in Psychology opens doors to a variety of careers. Three sample positions include:

Many PhDs remain in academia. They teach classes at colleges and junior colleges as well as perform research in their area of interest within the field of psychology. The BLS lists the mean annual wage for postsecondary psychology teachers as $85,050. 6

Clinical psychologists diagnose and treat a variety of mental, emotional, and behavioral problems. Some specialize in certain areas, such as treating depression or eating disorders. Others work with specific populations, such as children or the elderly. The median yearly salary for a clinical psychologist in 2020 was $79,820 per the BLS. 7

These professionals apply their knowledge of psychology to the workplace. Companies and governmental organizations hire them to examine issues such as productivity, morale, teamwork, hiring, and organizational development. Their suggestions lead to workplace improvements. The BLS reports the median annual salary for an industrial-organizational psychologist in 2020 as $96,270. 7

PsyD Vs PhD at a Glance

Individuals wishing to earn a doctorate have another option besides a PhD in Psychology. They may pursue a PsyD (Doctor of Psychology). Selecting which to earn depends on the student’s educational and career interests.

In general, PsyD programs:

• Focus heavily on applied psychology
• Take 4-7 years to complete
• Attract students interested in working as therapists inc community mental health, hospital, and private practice settings

By comparison, PhD programs in psychology:

• Focus extensively on generating new knowledge through scientific research
• Attract students interested in remaining in academia as professors and researchers, though many do  seek licensure and become practicing psychologists

What to Look for in Psychology Graduate Degree Programs

Online vs. on-campus learning.

Whether a student wishes to pursue a master’s degree or a doctorate, choices exist regarding the learning format. Some schools offer graduate-level psychology programs online. Choosing such a route can prove beneficial in terms of access, flexibility, and cost. 

Online studies remove geographical barriers when selecting an institution, which opens up a greater pool from which to choose. Remaining at home eliminates expenses related to travel and campus housing, and students with spouses or children do not need to upend their family’s lives to further their education and careers.

Students seeking online degrees should check the terms, however. Some programs include short residency requirements. Likewise, individuals may need to go to campus or other physical sites to complete research projects, internships, practicums, or other hands-on experiences.

Of course, regular on-site programs remain an option for students preferring traditional graduate school. A consistent schedule and the social aspect of attending classes physically alongside others still appeal to many students.

Psychology Certification and Licensure

Psychology-related occupations often require state licensure. Knowing the specifics for the state in which one hopes to find employment can guide educational and career choices and prevent unwelcome surprises down the line.

Psychologists, for example, typically need to complete the following:

• A PsyD or a PhD in Psychology
• An internship
• A post-doc or 1-year supervised professional experience after the internship
• A passing score on the Examination for Professional Practice in Psychology 
• Completion of a dissertation or case study

States usually require all licensed therapists to complete the following:

• A master’s degree
• A range of 2,000-4,000 hours of post-degree supervised clinical experience
• A successful exam score

Applying to Psychology Doctoral Programs

Acceptance into a Doctoral in Psychology program involves applying to individual institutions. Competition for spots can be substantial, so candidates should apply to several schools in order to increase the chances of getting in. 

Some places are more selective than others and may present harder entrance requirements. Someone who has not completed an undergraduate degree in psychology or a sufficient number of psychology courses will likely need to address this gap before seeking admission.

Admissions Requirements for PsyD and PhD Programs

Depending on where a student applies, the prospective school may ask for the following::

• Official transcripts from past collegiate studies at the undergraduate and graduate level, including classes taken, GPA, and degree(s) awarded with date
• Proof of any internships, certifications, or licenses
• A resume of work history, including dates and duties
• A description of other relevant activities, such as volunteer work or participation in professional associations
• Scores from the GRE and the GRE Psychology Test
• 2-3 letters of recommendation that support the candidacy
• Responses to essay prompts
• A personal statement explaining why the student wants to pursue this degree
• Interviews with faculty

Note that some programs look only at candidates who already possess a Master’s Degree in Psychology or a closely related field. Others accept students with a bachelor’s degree into a combined master’s/doctoral program.

Accreditation

Selecting a school with regional accreditation ensures the institution has met certain educational standards. Choose one approved by the  U.S. Department of Education  or the nonprofit  Council for Higher Education Accreditation  (CHEA). Your school’s specific graduate psychology program also should be accredited by one or both of these organizations.

Another important factor is checking if the program is accredited by the American Psychological Association (APA). 8  Satisfying licensure requirements in some states can be problematic without APA accreditation. Likewise, employers will often look at only job candidates who graduated from an APA-approved program and completed an APA-accredited internship.

Graduate Psychology Career Resources

The following organizations provide further information on licensure for different careers:

• The Association of State and Provincial Psychology Boards
• The National Board for Certified Counselors
• The Association of Marital and Family Therapy Regulatory Boards
• Commission on Rehabilitation Counselor Certification
• Someone possessing a PhD is not a medical doctor. A PhD is a doctor of philosophy. In recognition of the expertise obtained from completing this rigorous course of study, holders of a PhD are entitled to use the title “Doctor” if they so choose.
• One isn’t better than the other, just different. Which degree to pursue depends on individual interests and career aspirations. Aspiring therapists and counselors often choose a master’s program. Those wishing to become licensed psychologists must complete a doctoral program. Also, PhD programs focus heavily on research and often lead to working in an academic setting or consulting.
• Some career options for people who earn a graduate degree in psychology include marriage and family therapist, mental health counselor, substance abuse counselor, counseling psychologist, researcher, and psychology professor.
• A person holding a PhD in psychology is not a medical doctor and usually cannot write prescriptions. A few states do allow psychologists with training in psychopharmacology to prescribe a limited number of psychiatric medications. The majority of prescriptions, however, are written out by psychiatrists since they are MDs.
• https://www.bls.gov/ooh/community-and-social-service/marriage-and-family-therapists.htm#tab-1
• https://www.bls.gov/ooh/life-physical-and-social-science/psychologists.htm#tab-1
• https://www.bls.gov/ooh/community-and-social-service/substance-abuse-behavioral-disorder-and-mental-health-counselors.htm#tab-1
• https://www.bls.gov/ooh/business-and-financial/market-research-analysts.htm
• https://www.bls.gov/ooh/business-and-financial/training-and-development-specialists.htm
• https://www.bls.gov/oes/2017/may/oes251066.htm
• https://www.bls.gov/ooh/life-physical-and-social-science/psychologists.htm#tab-5
• https://www.accreditation.apa.org/accredited-programs

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9 things you should consider before embarking on a PhD

June 23, 2021 | 15 min read

By Andy Greenspon

The ideal research program you envision is not what it appears to be

Editor's Note:  When Andy Greenspon wrote this article, he was a first-year student in Applied Physics at Harvard. Now he has completed his PhD. — Alison Bert, June 23, 2021

If you are planning to apply for a PhD program, you're probably getting advice from dozens of students, professors, administrators your parents and the Internet. Sometimes it's hard to know which advice to focus on and what will make the biggest difference in the long-run. So before you go back to daydreaming about the day you accept that Nobel Prize, here are nine things you should give serious thought to. One or more of these tips may save you from anguish and help you make better decisions as you embark on that path to a PhD.

1. Actively seek out information about PhD programs.

Depending on your undergraduate institution, there may be more or less support to guide you in selecting a PhD program – but there is generally much less than when you applied to college.

On the website of my physics department, I found a page written by one of my professors, which listed graduate school options in physics and engineering along with resources to consult. As far as I know, my career center did not send out much information about PhD programs. Only after applying to programs did I find out that my undergraduate website had a link providing general information applicable to most PhD programs. This is the kind of information that is available all over the Internet.

So don't wait for your career center or department to lay out a plan for you. Actively seek it out from your career center counselors, your professors, the Internet — and especially from alumni from your department who are in or graduated from your desired PhD program. First-hand experiences will almost always trump the knowledge you get second-hand.

2. A PhD program is not simply a continuation of your undergraduate program.

Many students don't internalize this idea until they have jumped head-first into a PhD program. The goal is not to complete an assigned set of courses as in an undergraduate program, but to develop significant and original research in your area of expertise. You will have required courses to take, especially if you do not have a master's degree yet, but these are designed merely to compliment your research and provide a broad and deep knowledge base to support you in your research endeavors.

At the end of your PhD program, you will be judged on your research, not on how well you did in your courses. Grades are not critical as long as you maintain the minimum GPA requirement, and you should not spend too much time on courses at the expense of research projects. Graduate courses tend to be designed to allow you to take away what you will find useful to your research more than to drill a rigid set of facts and techniques into your brain.

3. Take a break between your undergraduate education and a PhD program.

You are beginning your senior year of college, and your classmates are asking you if you are applying to graduate school. You think to yourself, "Well, I like studying this topic and the associated research, and I am going to need a PhD if I want to be a professor or do independent research, so I might as well get it done as soon as possible." But are you certain about the type of research you want to do? Do you know where you want to live for the next five years? Are you prepared to stay in an academic environment for nine years straight?

Many people burn out or end up trudging through their PhD program without a thought about what lies outside of or beyond it. A break of a year or two or even more may be necessary to gain perspective. If all you know is an academic environment, how can you compare it to anything else? Many people take a job for five or more years before going back to get their PhD. It is true though that the longer you stay out of school, the harder it is to go back to an academic environment with lower pay and a lack of set work hours. A one-year break will give you six months or so after graduation before PhD applications are due. A two-year gap might be ideal to provide time to identify your priorities in life and explore different areas of research without having school work or a thesis competing for your attention.

Getting research experience outside of a degree program can help focus your interests and give you a leg up on the competition when you finally decide to apply. It can also help you determine whether you will enjoy full-time research or if you might prefer an alternative career path that still incorporates science, for example, in policy, consulting or business — or a hybrid research job that combines scientific and non-scientific skills.

I will be forever grateful that I chose to do research in a non-academic environment for a year between my undergraduate and PhD programs. It gave me the chance to get a feel for doing nothing but research for a full year. Working at the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory in the Space Division, I was the manager of an optics lab, performing spectroscopic experiments on rocks and minerals placed in a vacuum chamber. While my boss determined the overall experimental design, I was able to make my own suggestions for experiments and use my own discretion in how to perform them. I presented this research at two national conferences as well — a first for me. I was also able to learn about other research being performed there, determine which projects excited me the most, and thus narrow down my criteria for a PhD program.

4. Your current area of study does not dictate what you have to study in graduate school.

You might be studying the function and regulation of membrane proteins or doing a computational analysis of the conductivity of different battery designs, but that doesn't mean your PhD project must revolve around similar projects. The transition between college or another research job to a PhD program is one of the main transitions in your life when it is perfectly acceptable to completely change research areas.

If you are doing computation, you may want to switch to lab-based work or vice versa. If you are working in biology but have always had an interest in photonics research, now is the time to try it out. You may find that you love the alternative research and devote your PhD to it, you might hate it and fall back on your previous area of study — or you may even discover a unique topic that incorporates both subjects.

One of the best aspects of the PhD program is that you can make the research your own. Remember, the answer to the question "Why are you doing this research?" should not be "Well, because it's what I've been working on for the past few years already."While my undergraduate research was in atomic physics, I easily transitioned into applied physics and materials science for my PhD program and was able to apply much of what I learned as an undergraduate to my current research. If you are moving from the sciences to a non-STEM field such as social sciences or humanities, this advice can still apply, though the transition is a bit more difficult and more of a permanent commitment.

5. Make sure the PhD program has a variety of research options, and learn about as many research groups as possible in your first year.

Even if you believe you are committed to one research area, you may find that five years of such work is not quite what you expected. As such, you should find a PhD program where the professors are not all working in the same narrowly focused research area. Make sure there are at least three professors working on an array of topics you could imagine yourself working on.

In many graduate programs, you are supposed to pick a research advisor before even starting. But such arrangements often do not work out, and you may be seeking a new advisor before you know it. That's why many programs give students one or two semesters to explore different research areas before choosing a permanent research advisor.

In your first year, you should explore the research of a diverse set of groups. After touring their labs, talking to the students, or sitting in on group meetings, you may find that this group is the right one for you.

In addition, consider the importance of who your research advisor will be. This will be the person you interact with regularly for five straight years and who will have a crucial influence on your research. Do you like their advising style? Does their personality mesh with yours? Can you get along? Of course, the research your advisor works on is critical, but if you have large disagreements at every meeting or do not get helpful advice on how to proceed with your research, you may not be able to succeed. At the very least, you must be able to handle your advisor's management of the lab and advising style if you are going to be productive in your work. The Harvard program I enrolled in has professors working on research spanning from nanophotonics to energy materials and biophysics, covering my wide range of interests. By spending time in labs and offices informally chatting with graduate students, I found an advisor whose personality and research interests meshed very well with me. Their genuine enthusiasm for this advisor and their excitement when talking about their research was the best input I could have received.

6. Location is more important than you think — but name recognition is not.

The first consideration in choosing a PhD program should be, "Is there research at this university that I am passionate about?" After all, you will have to study this topic in detail for four or more years. But when considering the location of a university, your first thought should not be, "I'm going to be in the lab all the time, so what does it matter if I'm by the beach, in a city, or in the middle of nowhere." Contrary to popular belief, you will have a life outside of the lab, and you will have to be able to live with it for four or more years. Unlike when you were an undergraduate, your social and extracurricular life will revolve less around the university community, so the environment of the surrounding area is important. Do you need a city atmosphere to be productive? Or is your ideal location surrounded by forests and mountains or by a beach? Is being close to your family important? Imagine what it will be like living in the area during the times you are not doing research; consider what activities will you do and how often will you want to visit family.

While many of the PhD programs that accepted me had research that truly excited me, the only place I could envision living for five or more years was Boston, as the city I grew up near and whose environment and culture I love, and to be close to my family.

While location is more important than you think, the reputation and prestige of the university is not. In graduate school, the reputation of the individual department you are joining — and sometimes even the specific research group you work in — are more important. There, you will develop research collaborations and professional connections that will be crucial during your program and beyond. When searching for a job after graduation, other scientists will look at your specific department, the people you have worked with and the research you have done.

At the Asgard Irish Pub in Cambridge, Massachusetts, Andy Greenspon talks with fellow graduate students from Harvard and MIT at an Ask for Evidence workshop organized by Sense About Science. He grew up near Boston and chose to go to graduate school there.

7. Those time management skills you developed in college? Develop them further.

After surviving college, you may think you have mastered the ability to squeeze in your coursework, extracurricular activities and even some sleep. In a PhD program, time management reaches a whole new level. You will not only have lectures to attend and homework to do. You will have to make time for your research, which will include spending extended periods of time in the lab, analyzing data, and scheduling time with other students to collaborate on research.

Also, you will most likely have to teach for a number of semesters, and you will want to attend any seminar that may be related to your research or that just peaks your interest. To top it all off, you will still want to do many of those extracurricular activities you did as an undergraduate. While in the abstract, it may seem simple enough to put this all into your calendar and stay organized, you will find quickly enough that the one hour you scheduled for a task might take two or three hours, putting you behind on everything else for the rest of the day or forcing you to cut other planned events. Be prepared for schedules to go awry, and be willing to sacrifice certain activities. For some, this might be sleep; for others, it might be an extracurricular activity or a few seminars they were hoping to attend. In short, don't panic when things don't go according to plan; anticipate possible delays and be ready to adapt.

8. Expect to learn research skills on the fly – or take advantage of the training your department or career center offers.

This may be the first time you will have to write fellowship or grant proposals, write scientific papers, attend conferences, present your research to others, or even peer-review scientific manuscripts. From my experience, very few college students or even PhD students receive formal training on how to perform any of these tasks. Usually people follow by example. But this is not always easy and can be quite aggravating sometimes. So seek out talks or interactive programs offered by your department or career center. The effort will be well worth it when you realize you've become quite adept at quickly and clearly explaining your research to others and at outlining scientific papers and grant proposals. Alternatively, ask a more experienced graduate student or your advisor for advice on these topics. In addition, be prepared for a learning curve when learning all the procedures and processes of the group you end up working in. There may be many new protocols to master, whether they involve synthesizing chemicals, growing bacterial cells, or aligning mirrors on an optical table. In addition, the group may use programming languages or data analysis software you are unfamiliar with. Don't get discouraged but plan to spend extra effort getting used to these procedures and systems. After working with them regularly, they will soon become second nature. When I first started my job at Johns Hopkins, I felt overwhelmed by all the intricacies of the experiment and definitely made a few mistakes, including breaking a number of optical elements. But by the end of my year there, I had written an updated protocol manual for the modifications I had made to the experimental procedures and was the "master" passing on my knowledge to the next person taking the job.

9. There are no real breaks.

In a stereotypical "9-to-5" job, when the workday is over or the weekend arrives, you can generally forget about your work. And a vacation provides an even longer respite. But in a PhD program, your schedule becomes "whenever you find time to get your work done." You might be in the lab during regular work hours or you might be working until 10 p.m. or later to finish an experiment. And the only time you might have available to analyze data might be at 1 a.m. Expect to work during part of the weekend, too. Graduate students do go on vacations but might still have to do some data analysis or a literature search while away.

As a PhD student, it might be hard to stop thinking about the next step in an experiment or that data sitting on your computer or that paper you were meaning to start. While I imagine some students can bifurcate their mind between graduate school life and everything else, that's quite hard for many of us to do. No matter what, my research lies somewhere in the back of my head. In short, your schedule is much more flexible as a PhD student, but as a result, you never truly take a break from your work.

While this may seem like a downer, remember that you should have passion for the research you work on (most of the time), so you should be excited to think up new experiments or different ways to consider that data you have collected. Even when I'm lying in bed about to fall asleep, I am sometimes ruminating about aspects of my experiment I could modify or what information I could do a literature search on to gain new insights. A PhD program is quite the commitment and rarely lives up to expectations – but it is well worth the time and effort you will spend for something that truly excites you.

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Which is harder: MD or PhD?

• Thread starter DrMike24
• Start date Jun 29, 2005

eat, drink, and be merry

• Jun 29, 2005

DrMike24 said: I was talking to a friend the other day and she said that getting a PhD is harder and that they are more respected. What do you all think? Obviously they are hard in their own different ways. I dont know too much about what it takes to get a PhD, but I imagine its got to be pretty hard. What are the toughest parts of getting one? What are considered to be the hardest part of going through becoming a physician? Click to expand...

Although I have not even started either degree program yet, I am going to say PhD. Graduate school classes are indeed very difficult ( I actually do know this from experience), and pulling off research is even harder. Medical school seems like a ton of memorization of facts to me (if I am wrong let me know). The reasons why MD's are more respected have to do with visibility and a certain perceived deity/priest-like existence (the ability to 'save lives'). Read Kafka's story about the country doctor for a brilliant illustration of the former. Medical doctors see patients all the time and are more "involved" in the community. It's no wonder why they get more recognition. Researchers are more behind the scenes--albeit (obviously) a great deal of medical breakthroughs are discovered in the laboratory.  

decaying organic matter

Oh yeah, a PhD is considered the highest degree academically by educational institutions themselves.  

Senior Member

MD - broad spectrum of information but less in depth PhD - a lot less broad but much more in depth I would think the difficulty of the course work would be about the same, but I don't think you can compare the difficulty of 3rd and 4th year clerkships to the difficulty of years 3-5 of thesis research. They're just too different. I think PhDs have more respect in academia while MDs have greater respect in society.  

Lover, not a fighter

I think its PhD is easier to get into but a lot harder to get while MD is extremely hard to get into, but once you get in its almost certain you will graduate as an MD four years later. You can't say that about PhD.  

queen of the jungle

From my perspective, having been in a PhD program and seeing my husband in his MD program, I'd say it's hard to compare. I think the PhD might be harder in terms of patience, critical thinking, and just plain stubborness. It's really difficult to get good work done in a lab. The courses for PhD students, at least where I was in school, require much less absorption of fact but a much greater ability to think about evidence, examine it, design experiments to test it, etc. OTOH, in an MD program you have to memorize so much, and then you're thrown into the clinic, which is a whole new ball game, with an entire set of skills, both physical and mental to learn. As far as respect, I'd agree with Hallm_7 that PhDs have greater respect in academia and MDs have greater respect in general society. One thing that makes MD easier, in a way, is the knowledge that in the future you have the potential to make a good deal of money. This is partially, but not entirely, set off by the debt incurred in med school. But a grad student is looking forward to much much lower potential earnings for the time put in.  

Hmm, comparing the prestige and "ease-of-degree" of MD & PhD degrees is difficult, especially without pissing off everyone. They are both very advanced degrees that carry much respect and are extremely difficult to complete. I have just finished a PhD, and it was very challenging. You can spend 5-10 years chasing a research problem with little reward. Your success depends on both you and your advisor. Only half of my class finished the program. So yes, it's easier to get into, and harder to stay. Anyway, I don't know what my point is. But I wouldn't knock the Ph.D. or the M.D. We need both. Sparky  

Full Member

I agree with all of the above posts!!!!!! Nothing else to add. Just that my sentiments echo a combo of everything that has already been said.  

I'd just like to say I hope this thread is closed before it turns bad.  

Sparky Man said: But I wouldn't knock the Ph.D. or the M.D. We need both. Sparky Click to expand...

Final Countdown

PhD's: either Publish or Perrish. MD's: what do you call the person graduating last in your class? Doctor! With that said, I don't think you can really judge the two head to head.  

Machine Gunner

Getting into an PhD program is easier than getting into an MD program. The difference is that for the MD program, the application usually range from 3500-8000 per school depending on the location and reputation (some less, like state schools that only accept in state students, ECU gets about 1000 apps or so...) My school receives almost 4000 apps per year, and offers interviews to 500 people, and offer acceptance to about 230-240 for the 139 spots. Most of the people we interview are in the 30s for MCAT (over 85% tile), 3.7 GPA or so, and coming from very good undergrads, with many many EC, leadership things, different life backgrounds,..... In contrast, the PhD department (depending on the field/program), gets on the average, less apps and lower GRE/GPA vs the MD apps. So I believe admissions into medical school is a lot harder than into PhD programs. As to if MD is harder than PhD...... I have not done a phD program before, but I have finished my MD this year. Some of my best friends in the school are MD/PhD canidates, and they finish the 1st 2 years of basic sciences with me, then move on to the PhD cirriculum. I have asked them many times in the past if they felt the PhD was harder vs. the 1st 2 years of MD. The responses have been "PhD classes are a joke compared to the 1st two years of MD..." This is coming from 3 guys in my class. They also said the research is very "frustrating". Picking the right Mentor and lab will make the most difference in the experience you will have in your phD program. I guess it is very difficult to say which is harder or easier.... mostly depends on who you talk with. If you have not done the 1st 2 years of medical school and have not taken USMLE Step I, ... I can tell you that it is not as easy as "just memorization". There is so much material that you have to learn, and takes more than just memorizing thing to get through. In the same token, getting a phD is tough in a different way. You have to wait for results, do many experiments, tweek your methods all the time, analyze the data, then tweek your experiments again, and things always go wrong, so that you will have to go back and re do the experiment, then when you are ready to publish,.... there might be another lab that have the same data or similar that published before you, .... then back to the drawing board, or re anaylze the data and publish form another angle so that it is slightly different than the other lab's paper. I definitely did not even consider the phD route... and I did a year of research before medical school as well as in medical school just to get the experience.  

Sam212 said: I think its PhD is easier to get into but a lot harder to get while MD is extremely hard to get into, but once you get in its almost certain you will graduate as an MD four years later. You can't say that about PhD. Click to expand...

Learfan said: As someone who acquired a PhD in chemistry, let me try to shed a little light on the process. In many programs, the progression through the requirements to be granted the degree look like this: 1. One year of full time classes taken while teaching undergrad classes to support yourself. GPA must be a 3.0 minimum. Strong pressure from research advisor to finish all classes during first year to get you into the lab as completely devoted slave labor ASAP. 2. Comprehensive exam taken at the end of first year with three chances to earn a passing grade or take specific subject matter exams with a requirement to pass a minimum proportion of them (e.g. 6 out of 9 given during your second year in residence). Different departments utilize each exam system. Pass exams under applicable system or get dropped from program. 3. Take propositional oral exam. Preparation usually requires about three months. This is often five of them (faculty) taking on one of you in a small closed room. Yes, it is is an exercise in intimidation. Here you play research advisor and design a program that someone else could complete to obtain their PhD. The research must have the potential to materially contribute to the science. Passing or failing is completely subjective and there is no appeal of a failed grade. 4. Perform endless research for 3 to 6 additional years under unsafe conditions while either teaching to support yourself or living a meager existance being supported on a stipend from a research grant. This means long hours and dangerous working conditions followed by more long hours waiting for instrument time, chemicals to arrive, experiments to cook, etc., etc., etc.............................................Very hard to negotiate an end to the research since once you are adept in the lab, there is an interest on the part of your advisor to keep you as cheap labor pumping out publishable research advisor agrandising material. Strong potential for endless abuse in this type of situation. Keep in mind that you actually need some new science that works. You cannot write a completely negative thesis. People often spend years searching for a new bit of technology that actually works. 5. Give departmental seminar. Read articles from the literature and give a public talk. Not a very useful exercise. 6. Write up and defend thesis. 7. Leave and never return or speak to anyone at the department where you did your graduate work. The bitterness runs that deep. 8. Try to find work. Any work. I mean any work at all. ................................................You mean I spent five (or six or seven or eight) years earning a graduate degree that does not qualify me as interesting to any employer outside of academics???????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I need some money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am going to be evicted from my roach infested hovel of an apartment if I dont come up with some coin NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 9. Drink heavily before applying at temp agency. That is the PhD experience in a nutshell. Do not go here. Get an MD that actually gives you a chance to participate in the work force. Forget about respect for a PhD. Nobody cares about your degree. Click to expand...

Wow that's rough. Just a quick question, I remember some time back you were saying its real hard to get a job in chemistry. Why is that??? I always thought it was easier to get a job with a chem degree or physics degree then with a bio degree. that is what I've heard on many occassions. Is it that it was tough to get some good name research positions????? Or was it just hard to get a job in general?????? Thanks in advance. There are very few jobs in research be it chemical, biological or physical. By self identifying as a PhD you are targeting those few research positions. Good luck.  

The MD is cake compared to the PhD. Really. I've done both. Why does the PhD suck so hard? One simple, awful thing: you never know when it's going to end. That fact alone gradually erodes your will to live and grinds your soul into powder. Sure, med school has times that suck. Cramming, taking exams, getting scutted, waking up at 4 a.m. These things all blow, but they occur according to a predetermined schedule. In the end you just hunker down, do your best, and let the waves of unpleasantness wash over you. Eventually they subside and you move on. Not so with grad school. Its only saving grace is that if things get truly unbearable you can quit without worrying about having huge piles of debt. Were this not the case, I firmly believe the levels of depression, substance abuse and suicide among MD's would look like a sugar-coated candy land compared to the ranks of PhD students.  

BrettBatchelor said: PhD's: either Publish or Perrish. MD's: what do you call the person graduating last in your class? Doctor! With that said, I don't think you can really judge the two head to head. Click to expand...

Learfan said: Wow that's rough. Just a quick question, I remember some time back you were saying its real hard to get a job in chemistry. Why is that??? I always thought it was easier to get a job with a chem degree or physics degree then with a bio degree. that is what I've heard on many occassions. Is it that it was tough to get some good name research positions????? Or was it just hard to get a job in general?????? Thanks in advance. There are very few jobs in research be it chemical, biological or physical. By self identifying as a PhD you are targeting those few research positions. Good luck. Click to expand...

Havarti666 said: The MD is cake compared to the PhD. Really. I've done both. Why does the PhD suck so hard? One simple, awful thing: you never know when it's going to end. That fact alone gradually erodes your will to live and grinds your soul into powder. Sure, med school has times that suck. Cramming, taking exams, getting scutted, waking up at 4 a.m. These things all blow, but they occur according to a predetermined schedule. In the end you just hunker down, do your best, and let the waves of unpleasantness wash over you. Eventually they subside and you move on. Not so with grad school. Its only saving grace is that if things get truly unbearable you can quit without worrying about having huge piles of debt. Were this not the case, I firmly believe the levels of depression, substance abuse and suicide among MD's would look like a sugar-coated candy land compared to the ranks of PhD students. Click to expand...

Phd's in the United States get ZERO respect and that can be seen from the dismal amounts of money they make. Before you scream, "money's not important if you love it blah blah blah," I'm saying it's very important on a group level. Many of the best and the brightest US citizens do not go into research and get Phd's. Why? B/c of the money! Similarly, the best and the brightest don't go into medicine in England (a country I hold citizenship in) b/c they get paid nill. That is why England has soooo many foregin doctors... to fill the void. Likewise, if you go into any lab you will find many, if not mostly, foreign students. This is great for the US (we take the worlds brightest), but what will happen when globalization allows these students to stay in their own countries b/c the standard of living has increased there? Most analysts agree that the US will see a drop in foreign brain power. So, unless Phd's are paid more, Phd's will still have no prestige as a profession. I cringe at the thought of having all those brilliant East Asian and Indian immigrants no longer coming to the US b/c their countries will soon have the infrustructure to conduct serious science. These immigrants have always been the power behind American science. (Not to sound biased towards East Asians, I also point out Einstein and all the other German's who contributed greatly to the US). Please excuse my spelling and grammer mistakes... not proof-read.  

Wow, this hasn't gone to hell yet. I'm pleasantly surprised. Let me just comment on Learfan's post. That sounds horrendous, and I'm sorry anyone has to go through that. However, that's not the universal experience of a PhD student. My program (in biology) has been completely the opposite. We have to TA one quarter per year, and most of our TAships are very little work. We have almost no class requirements. We do have a written test and oral exam on our thesis proposals at the end of our second year, but neither of these is arduous and you basically have to be a real f***-up to fail. My department is very good about getting people out in reasonable time frames and most people lately get out in 5-6 years (I anticipate 4.5, but I had a fast moving project). Of course, I'm still sick of it and want to get out ASAP, mainly because basic science seems like a pointless waste of effort to me most of the time. I'm not saying it is, but it's really not right for my personality. Anyway, different people are good at different things...you'll find plenty of people who would be successful in science and not medicine, and vice versa. The OP's question doesn't have an answer that applies to everyone.  

anomic said: Phd's in the United States get ZERO respect and that can be seen from the dismal amounts of money they make. Before you scream, "money's not important if you love it blah blah blah," I'm saying it's very important on a group level. Many of the best and the brightest US citizens do not go into research and get Phd's. Why? B/c of the money! Similarly, the best and the brightest don't go into medicine in England (a country I hold citizenship in) b/c they get paid nill. That is why England has soooo many foregin doctors... to fill the void. Likewise, if you go into any lab you will find many, if not mostly, foreign students. This is great for the US (we take the worlds brightest), but what will happen when globalization allows these students to stay in their own countries b/c the standard of living has increased there? Most analysts agree that the US will see a drop in foreign brain power. So, unless Phd's are paid more, Phd's will still have no prestige as a profession. I cringe at the thought of having all those brilliant East Asian and Indian immigrants no longer coming to the US b/c their countries will soon have the infrustructure to conduct serious science. These immigrants have always been the power behind American science. (Not to sound biased towards East Asians, I also point out Einstein and all the other German's who contributed greatly to the US). Please excuse my spelling and grammer mistakes... not proof-read. Click to expand...

Learfan said: Just wait till we all see what the future holds. Many companies in oil, computers and other technically sophisticated fields are gradually transfering research operations over to India. There has been a very successful movement to raise the standard of living on the Indian subcontinent through enhancing the availability of highly trained scientists and engineers who can afford to live well on a salary that would not work for someone in the United States, Western Europe or Japan. I mean engineers who will happily work a 40 to 50 hour week for $9 to $10 K per year. Soon the market for PhD level people in the United States will shrink still further. Click to expand...

Learfan said: Sir, you have earned my respect. You truly have been there and seen the devil and all of his demons. You put your finger right on the problem. It is impossible to tell when grad school will finally END . The ambiguity grinds away at your very soul. We lost two students to suicide during my tenure in a grad program and several of my friends checked themselves into psychiatric facilities. It was scary to be around conditions that can shatter the minds of bright, devoted and seemingly normal people. Add to that the non-stop drug and alcohol abuse of those who seemed to be "coping" with the conditions around them. I could not wait to get out. This is going to date me horribly but the day I left the state where I did grad school, I had a tape of Meatloaf's "Bat Out of Hell" in the tape deck. It seemed appropriate. Click to expand...

jrdnbenjamin said: Wow, this hasn't gone to hell yet. I'm pleasantly surprised. Let me just comment on Learfan's post. That sounds horrendous, and I'm sorry anyone has to go through that. However, that's not the universal experience of a PhD student. My program (in biology) has been completely the opposite. We have to TA one quarter per year, and most of our TAships are very little work. We have almost no class requirements. We do have a written test and oral exam on our thesis proposals at the end of our second year, but neither of these is arduous and you basically have to be a real f***-up to fail. My department is very good about getting people out in reasonable time frames and most people lately get out in 5-6 years (I anticipate 4.5, but I had a fast moving project). Of course, I'm still sick of it and want to get out ASAP, mainly because basic science seems like a pointless waste of effort to me most of the time. I'm not saying it is, but it's really not right for my personality. Anyway, different people are good at different things...you'll find plenty of people who would be successful in science and not medicine, and vice versa. The OP's question doesn't have an answer that applies to everyone. Click to expand...

Here is all I have to say: MD is harder to get into and work like hell to come out doing well (passing boards, USMLE and stuff liek taht finding residencies), PhD seems like just time dedication and a bunch of luck and innovation on the part of a research thesis. Post-doc doesn't seem all that hard to find since the scientific community expands perpetually. Ofcourse it depends what you have a PhD in but if you're a PhD youre either a PI or a teacher. Take your pick. A PhD is poor and starving  

vicinihil said: Here is all I have to say: MD is harder to get into and work like hell to come out doing well (passing boards, USMLE and stuff liek taht finding residencies), PhD seems like just time dedication and a bunch of luck and innovation on the part of a research thesis. Post-doc doesn't seem all that hard to find since the scientific community expands perpetually. Ofcourse it depends what you have a PhD in but if you're a PhD youre either a PI or a teacher. Take your pick. A PhD is poor and starving Click to expand...

GasEmDee said: I have done both, and i *WHOLEHEARTEDLY* agree with Havarti. You never know when you will be done. Your advisor can make your road easy, or he can make it unbearable. It is often hard to know what category your advisor fits in until you are committed to (and stuck with) working with him. With the MD, you will be done one day....each day is inexorable progress towards completion. With the PhD, you can spend years and get no closer to the end. I'd have to say that working a 30-something hour shift and waking up at 4am pales in comparison to the fear that you will rot away years in graduate school and end up with nothing to show for it. I dont mind working hard...but its miserable if all those hours of work were in vain. Click to expand...

Former Chicken Slayer

Knowing the post-docs I do, I'd say that it isnt easy because you're still not established in the field and you make NO money and get very little respect. Plus you're trying to get funding so you can get on your own two feet and this year funds through the NIH and NSF cover about 30% of the applicants and most of that goes to established investigators and the very top of the new investigators, not the average post doc. PLUS many post docs start their families after finishing school and are stressed with new kids and dont get to see them because they're fighting grand deadlines etc. I dont think that there is a competition between the two, they both are VERY hard lifestyles and take a long time to earn degrees and even longer to earn respect and money.  

Trying to smile real hard

I have two stories to share: 1) My dad did graduate school for 8 years eventually getting a Ph.d. I did not remember my dad growing up because he would come home very late after endless experiments and then study for his coursework. After 8 years of research, he did 7 years of post-doc publishing several papers, but leading no where because of his PI sucked. In the end, he regretted it all, and is now a patent officer making 75 grand, after 15 years of making only 40 grand, barely enough to raise a family. 2) My aunt recieved her doctorate overseas before immigrating to America. She decided to become an American licensed doctor. She studied 5 years so far for the boards Step I and II, seperated from her two kids and husband. She still has a couple more years before she can become a resident. And then a couple more years before becoming a practicing doctor. MD and PH.d are both long, arduous process. Its only a matter if you want to be biatch for your PI or for humanity. Choose your poison.  

Sparky Man said: Your success depends on both you and your advisor. Sparky Click to expand...

• Jun 30, 2005

Membership Revoked

of course ph.d. is harder and more respected.(assuming you do become professor, that is get a ph.d. from a prestigious school). most premeds never even take any courses beyond the undergrad level... i am sure medschool is hard and all, but all the courses there are on the level of undergrad. on the other hand, quantum field theory-> hot.  

sure most doctors make more than ph.d.'s. most gas station owners do too. but ph.d's have the most noble education, by far.  

you all talk about time dedication. but volume does not equal quality. ph.d's do innovative research... any physical science ph.d. could handle med school if he tried hard, but most med students wouldnt even be able to handle graduate level courses in hard sciences(that is not ph.d. but masters level), not to mention the research part. and even humanities ph.d's-they are remarkably eloquent, hence they stand out from the rest of the population. while most md's only stand out with their egos and hard work and ambitions...  

SoCal Hater

bor0000 said: you all talk about time dedication. but volume does not equal quality. ph.d's do innovative research... any physical science ph.d. could handle med school if he tried hard, but most med students wouldnt even be able to handle graduate level courses in hard sciences(that is not ph.d. but masters level), not to mention the research part. and even humanities ph.d's-they are remarkably eloquent, hence they stand out from the rest of the population. while most md's only stand out with their egos and hard work and ambitions... Click to expand...

Plastic Bag Middle Class

DrMike24 said: I was talking to a friend the other day and she said that getting a PhD is harder and that they are more respected. Click to expand...

Darwin Award Winner

Forging a Different Path

Dr.Giggles said: MD and PH.d are both long, arduous process. Its only a matter if you want to be biatch for your PI or for humanity. Choose your poison. Click to expand...

MD, MPH, MSM

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